Howl' filmmakers talk youth culture, James Franco

The Daily sat down last week with acclaimed director−writers Rob Epstein and Jeffrey Friedman in a round−table interview to discuss their much−anticipated Allen Ginsberg experimental biopic, "Howl," in theaters today. Epstein and Friedman have their roots in documentary filmmaking and are renowned for award−winning films such as "The Times of Harvey Milk" (1984), "Common Threads: Stories from the Quilt" (1989) and "The Celluloid Closet" (1995). Question: One of the striking things about the film for me was the visual style: how it was black and white and in color, how the story was structured, the courtroom drama and then with [Ginsberg] reading the poem. So I was wondering, [at] what part of the … creative process did you come up with that distinct style? Rob Epstein: Well we knew at the beginning that we wanted to do something that would be challenging, adventurous in a way that would resonate with the way the poem was challenging and adventurous when it came out. We started from that point and then we just started looking at the poem from different angles and finding different ways of telling the story, or stories. We wanted to understand what went into making the poem and the creative process and what Allen had to go through as a person to get to the point so he could write the poem. We wanted the poem to live on its own in the movie, both as imagination, which we did in the animation, and as performance, which was how it was first presented to the world as the first spoken−word performance art. And how the world responded to it and the world that it was put out into, which is what we used the obscenity trial for. Jeffrey Friedman: To add to that a little bit, we knew we wanted the film to play in the present tense rather than to do a historical documentary as if we are starting for the point of older people looking back on their younger selves. The film takes place in 1957 and then it flashes back to the early '50s and late '40s, so the flashbacks are in black and white and the present tense is in color. Metaphorically, the way that is supposed to work is the world transitions from black and white to color when [the poem] "Howl" is launched into the world and Allen finds his creative voice. So that's kind of the deconstruction of those choices. Q: When did you decide that you wanted to make a film about "Howl," and what persuaded you to go with this route rather than traditional straight documentary? RE: Well, the project came to us from Allen Ginsberg's estate. They wanted to do something for the 50th anniversary of the poem. And we didn't quite realize that date … or quite feel the pressure of realizing that date. … That date was kind of arbitrary to us and to them until we had a concept that felt like it was complementary to what the poem was in its day. To come up with a concept that was different and unique from a standard, traditional documentary. And again, if we had done a documentary, first of all, there's no material from that period that we're depicting, so we would have had to create it anyway. We also felt like you all [college students] wouldn't relate to it in the same way than if you were to see it as a narrative film. In fact, early on we showed some ideas to students and it was in talking with them that we came to see that we had to find another way to tell the story instead of documentary. And that was a challenge we set for ourselves. JF: It's a story about young people. They're like college−age guys who were creating this new style of writing and ended up really having an effect on the culture. But it's very much an expression of youthful creative rebellion that we wanted to capture. Q: What was the thought process behind the animation sequences? I did read that it was the same illustrator who had illustrated [Ginsberg's] poems, but what made you decide to include them in that way? RE: Well the poem exists in so many different ways in the movie — it's performative in the Six Gallery, with James Franco as Ginsberg performing the poem, so you have an opportunity to experience it as spoken word. It exists as analysis in the trial when it is being presented and deconstructed as evidence. And we wanted it to live as an experience as well. So the animation to us seemed like a way to create a cinematic experience that you wouldn't have in any other form. So, why not? And it just seemed like we thought of animated films like "Fantasia" (1940) and Pink Floyd's "The Wall" (1979) where it just takes you into a very trippy experience of somebody else's mind creation. So we set it up that it's emanating from Allen — Allen's the source — but you come into another experience from it. JF: And we tried to make it elusive and not literal so that the audience can have their own experience of the words as they're watching the images. But you know, it is a specific vision, and we thought of it as an adaptation in the way you adapt a novel. You have to make some character concrete, you have to make things concrete, things that people have their own idea about. Q: My favorite parts of the movie were the flashback scenes, especially where [Ginsberg] first met Jack, and I think you were really on point with the awkwardness of our age. So thank you for that. RE: Thank you. It's not that easy to make James Franco seem awkward. JF: In that first scene, we had to tell him not to kiss so good. He said, "Oh, too good, huh?" We told him to turn it down: "You're not comfortable kissing that girl!" RE: We had to trick him in the one scene. All the flashback scenes were improv. When [he] and Jack are on the park bench, where he's reading his poetry and Jack thinks it's garbage, we told him, "Oh, we'll never use this footage." Q: Do you guys have a favorite moment in the movie? RE: Well, there was a moment when we were filming when we knew it was a moment. And it was when James was performing the poem and does the live section about Carl Solomon and just works up to a crescendo. And we could just see in that performance, all the backstory, all of Allen's backstory was there in that moment. That's what you live for in any movie — you're looking for those moments when it's happening right then and you're catching it on film. You really got it.